Hard Mode or Lost Levels?

I know that Ragee stated in the official plan that we would combine SMB and Lost Levels into one game and that is still the plan. However I thought with the SMB part of the project almost complete it might be a good idea to make a poll and incite some discussion about our options.

Option 1: Lost Levels

Create the levels from the Lost Levels and insert as many as possible into worlds 5-8. With only around 72 normal NSMBW levels to work with and 52 lost levels it may be difficult to make them all fit. Especially if we don't have access to world 9. We could always only use Worlds 1-8 of the Lost Levels and not use World 9 and levels A-D. However if we start using the toad houses, encounters etc it could be possible to make more of them fit

Option 2: Hard Mode

Make two releases one for SMB and another for Lost Levels and add a new mode to replace Worlds 5-8. The original SMB had a mode which was unlocked once you completed the game called extra mode or hard mode in which All Goombas are replaced by Buzzy Beetles, ground enemies walk faster and long lifts are shortened by one block, plus a number of other things. The idea of this was the make the game more challenging.

Since a number of people have compained the game at the moment is too easy we could use this as an opportunity to prove them very wrong by creating a extreme mode. Or in other words versions of the levels that are almost the same but a hell of lot more difficult. We can remove or move a lot of the powerups, switch the enemies or increase their number, make the jumps over pits etc further, make the firebars longer and faster (and use double firebars), change which pipes connect to the bonus areas. Change the correct path through mazes. Replace piranha plants with fire ones. Crap loads of bullet bills. Reduce the timer so it's really short. Add invisible blocks that cause mario to hit his head and fall into lava etc. We can be creative and really mean with the changes.

The downside to doing this is that the Lost Levels really are in a way a harder version of SMB. So it may be better to spend the time working on the Lost Levels instead.



There isn't really a correct answer but I thought it might be a good idea to see what people think.

Hard mode and a seperate lost levels iso is the way forward i believe.........

nikeymikey wrote:

Hard mode and a seperate lost levels iso is the way forward i believe.

I agree

No way! A single release is the way to go. If we were recreating SMB1's hard mode, then maybe. Our goal is authenticity, so I don't think we should use our judgement in how to redesign the levels. Using our own judgement in designing levels creates a whole new world of problems. I used to work a lot with various versions of RPG Maker, and its so, sooooo, sooooooooo hard to find that balance of challenging-but-not-frustrating. Lost Levels is frustrating enough for most people.

Now, if we decided to split this project into two ISOs like this:

ISO 1 - Super Mario Bros 1 & Super Mario Bros 1 Hard mode (which would fit perfectly into the level placement, I believe)
ISO 2 - Super Mario Bros 2

This way, we could have SMB2 in its entirety and not have to worry about world 9. This would also add to the difficulty for people wanting to play a more challenging SMB1, and would essentially let us create a more complete SMB1 remake.

I still lean more toward having a single release. Most people will play through our project out of curiosity and nostalgia. Many people have already played though other people's SMB remake levels. I don't think most people would play through its entirety if we made a single ISO with SMB1 and 2, much less if we split it. To the people that voted for 2 ISOs, did you want to use the official hard mode or our own made up one?

For authenticity reasons I would like the original hard mode, but I would understand if people wanted to make it harder, by adding our own twist.

But as the saying goes "If it ain't broke, then don't try to fix it!!"

this topic is probably my fault as I mentioned it to ham in chat earlier :p

I like the idea of a seperate lost levels iso, because it would all fit in then. There are 52 levels in LL, and only 32 in SMB. The only way we get them all into 1 iso is by using toad houses etc, which brings it's own set of problems. I say 1 iso SMB normal and hard mode, 1 iso Lost Levels. I mean it won't take long to recreate the original hard mode as we already have the levels done, just means changing the enemies about a bit and maybe the timers in the levels( can't remember but they may be shorter in hard mode). And people have already started makin LL so thats a project that's already underway, may as well use it properly and not just half of it or have it in a jumbled order due to toad houses etc....

I wouldn't be totally against using the original Hard mode, I just think it would be a waste because I don't think most people will want to play through the levels AGAIN. They've played the original, they've played all stars, they are playing it again as a homebrew NSMBW hack. Dunno how interested most people are in hard mode for this. Also, there are a few things we can't do, like make the enemies walk faster.

For Lost Levels, I think that the first 8 worlds is plenty. If we chopped off 9 and A - D, is it that big of a deal? Most people I know haven't gotten though World 1 of Lost Levels..

but worlds 9, a ,b ,c and d are the best ones in ll, they may be hard but thats the idea lol

What makes them the best worlds? Again, I'm not very familiar with LL. From what I've seen on youtube of them, they seem pretty random and messed up.

Also, splitting the project into two ISOs would mess up the name. I thought we were pretty decided on New Super Mario Bros: Retro Remix. How would we rename it? Retro Remix 1 and Retro Remix 2?

How about "Retro Remix" and "Retro Remix:Lost Levels"?

nikeymikey wrote:

How about "Retro Remix" and "Retro Remix:Lost Levels"?

Thats not too bad an idea, although people will complain that "New Super Mario Bros: Retro Remix: Lost Levels" is too long of a name.

Probably but you can't please everyone lol.

I would prefer to have the original hard mode as worlds 5 - 8 and a second ISO for the lost levels.

How are we being perfectly accurate if we're missing almost half of the lost levels?

I was trying to think of ways we could make the Lost Levels fit and if we have access to world 9 (through Ocarino code) we could use worlds 5 to 8 for Lost Levels 1-8. Then by combining two levels into one with a midway point we could make Lost Levels worlds A-D fit into 9-1 to 9-8. That would only leave Lost Levels world 9.

Judging by the responses so far we can't underestimate people's need for a challenge. Whatever we do I think the game should have some levels which are extremely difficult by the end. Now I think the Lost Levels should provide that challenge but with the different engine we will have to try it to find out.